About Fosse's Dancin', The prodigal Son, working closely with Jerome Robbins, Musical Theatre

The first part of this interview was published online on January 10th, 2022. To read it, just go to the Main Menu and enter either "Content => Interviews" or "Blog".

„Another important question, Robbie", I interrupted him „What is being talented? Is it having those incredible qualities or is it going on Stage and DANCE?"

The prodigal Son - the brilliant picture that tells the whole Story. Copyright: Monroe Warshaw

„I think that all that is talent. Perhaps you don't have the best body but you can be a great performer, you can be a wonderful actor or you can have talents like Sylvie Guillem, this incredible „bla-bla-bla" facility and incredible Artistry at the same time, or you have it all. You can also be like Nureyev, the greatest example: he started late, he had many challenges, limitations, problems but he had the will and the passion, he wanted to be a ballet dancer, an artist and he worked his tail off – so THAT's what I am talking about, I'm not talking about being given everything; he had to work hard for it. I know lots of people like that, who ended up in the Company – although I have seen also people that started in the company and five years later they said; „Well, that's not really what I want". But this nowadays has a lot to do with whether they progress or not. If they stay in the Corps for 6 or 7 years, they decide to move on, go to College etc. In our days you stayed in the Corps de Ballet until we were into our 30s! Easily. It was the „end" for some people. But it was OK. They loved it and thought „I have achieved this and I'll stay here and be a good Corps de Ballet member" but now people's eyes are set more in... let's say, „doing roles"!”

“ And Success?”

“Yes and also because, as I have mentioned before, the levels (Corps de Ballet, Soloists etc.) are the same now. They are so well trained that their abilities are great and they can move around, try different companies etc. Yes, move around and see if other Artistic Director will use you differently..."

„But let's go back a bit to the representation issue... it does not get out of my mind. Let's talk a bit more about that!"

„The more I think of it, the more I feel that we have to look more at it. I have no qualms about it! Because it will also attract more audience members. Think “economically”: if you're excluding people from the stage, you're gonna exclude them from the audience, right? The ticket price alone makes it hard for a vast majority of people to see ballet. It is an elite Art form and the percentage of people walking into a Theatre to see ballet is becoming less and less. Let's be honest, that is scary! We have to examine this more, even how the Media plays a part in the Ballet itself. Every Ballet director should examine this – we are always filming “things”, yes, but the question is HOW do we film things? Think of the pandemic: We have just spent one and a half years looking at dancing on television, I am, quite frankly, bored with it. We are all eager to get back to watching ballet live. And ballet, as an Art form, is unique in this because it is a completely different experience when it's „live" or on film... „

„But on the other hand isn't it great to have so much footage of great dancers like Baryshnikov, etc.?„

„Yes, it is an Art Form in itself and it is great for those kids to have that but we have also no documentation of Nijinsky, not much of Nureyev... but getting back to an important point for me: in this time of reflection, as a gay man, this is one of my big issues – it is important to be gay and out, let people know that because that's important: not to shy away from it and most of all to push for these Stories to be told on the Stage. That's one of my biggest issues"

„Tell me something about your first book – I do say „first" because I still hope that someday you'll write a sequel to „Nothing to hide" - you mentioned that once... „

„After my ten years of worry, when I thought I was gonna die, part of me thought that I should write my book because maybe I could not be here anymore and I wanted to tell the story of a young kid who grows up in a small town in Texas, who's gay and he makes it to New York and becomes a principal dancer. A very simple story. A success Story. It had lots to do that I had good teachers and that I was also lucky. My story is a very different one from Mikhail Baryshnikov's. You know; he came from a very different system and he left Russia because he wanted something different from what he was doing. And I wanted something different from Texas. Two Different Stories. We ended up being on stage together, sharing the stage, even dancing some of the same roles. But my abilities were different: I came from a different kind of school, I also came to New York thinking that I perhaps might end up more like a Broadway performer. But primarily I came to New York to study and find out what was best for me; not to dance at this or that Company precisely but to learn – also about myself. Of course, my childhood helped me a lot; I had done lots of musical theatre when I was a child, singing, dancing, acting. My childhood formed me as a performer and I ended up doing many roles in which there was tap-dancing, acting, drama. I was that kind of performer... „

I showed him some pictures that I so like from „The Prodigal Son". I just showed them but said nothing.

„Yes, when you look at those pictures you see someone who has studied and also a lot of experience in dramatic roles. I played Oliver Twist, for God's sake, when I was a child so I understood that kid who was thrown out and in the streets so I understood the prodigal son just by doing this other role... „

The prodigal Son with Cynthia Gregory. Coparight: Martha Swope

„ I have seen an interview with you in which you said that „Ballet is the Art form in which you can express yourself better nowadays", remember that?"

„Yes, I guess because I did it for so long. But I did so many other things... I got into a ballet company and three years into being at ABT I was asked to do Bob Fosse's „Dancin'", I didn't seek it out. Then the same thing happened when I was working with Jerome Robbins I got interested in choreography – the ballet had a kind of stability that Broadway doesn't. When you do Broadway you can do a show for two or three years then you may not work for two or three years – I understood that by getting into a ballet company I'd have a kind of stability that I wouldn't have being a Broadway performer... But to answer your question again: Yes, because I did it longer than anything else"

The prodigal Son. Copyright: Steven Caras.

"You have just mentioned working with Jerome Robbins. And this reminds me that you were nominated for a "Tony" for playing Gaby (editorial note: “On The Town”) in "Jerome Robbins's Broadway", right?"

"No, for playing "Tony" in West Side Story in it!" he laughs while I think of "A Tony nomination for playing Tony" - but I did not say it as I thought he might have heard this "joke" a thousand times... " But let me tell you about my Story with Jerome. When I was a child, I did musical theatre. I did "Gypsy" when I was about 10 or 11. You know, one of the little Newspaper Boys. So I did not know it at the time but the "connection" had already started then. I did also "Peter Pan" (editorial note: Both directed and choreographed by Robbins). When I got to Ballet Theatre one of the first Ballets I saw was "Fancy free" - and I completely connected to that because of my musical theatre background – and this was also one of the first parts I did in one of his ballets. Probably it was the first. But then, when Misha took over the company, we went to Spoleto/Italy to do a whole Robbins' programme and that was the first time I got to work with Jerry and that's when the relationship started. We got along well together. He liked my dancing, he liked the way I worked. I was young and I was always trying to prove myself. One day he turned to me and said "You can take it easy, you don't have to prove yourself to me anymore". That was a memorable trip. A small group of dancers with Mikhail Baryshnikov and we were in Spoleto, which you know, is gorgeous! So here I was: still a kid and working with two ballet geniuses. At that time I did "Other dances", "The Afternoon of a Faun", "Opus Jazz" and "Fancy Free"

I sort of looked amazed and he added immediately "But not on the same night... That was an introduction to his work. Some years later, when I decided to leave Ballet Theatre and after it was announced a week later at "The New York Times", he called me and said "Let's have dinner together". I had signed a contract to do Andrew Lloyd Weber’s "Song and Dance" on the road, which you know, is Peter Martins' choreography (editorial note: to be quite honest, I had forgotten that!). We had dinner together and he told me that I should join "The New York City Ballet", it was just after Joseph Duell's death and there was a vacancy for a principal. Jerry invited me, I didn't think about it twice and just said "Absolutely but I want also to choreograph" to which he said "You'll be able to". So, two great things happened at the same time!"

"This was 1986?"

"Yes and three years later he walked over to me and asked "Do you want to be in a Broadway musical?", I was so surprised and could only answer "Yes" with wide-opened eyes! He then proceeded to tell me that I should go to the musical director so he could find out in which vocal range I was in. To me, working with him on that show, was probably the highlight of my career. 22 weeks of rehearsal and from each musical we used, we did nearly every single musical scene of it. All of them did not end in the show but it was a kind of investigation, diving into the whole story"

"This is amazing – who would work like this nowadays? It sounds to me more like a "Laboratory", people would call it a "workshop" now... who could afford ON BROADWAY to rehearse like that? Tell me... was Jerome somehow connected with "The Actor's Studio"?"

"This is not all – he would bring any living person who had originated a role to our rehearsals. Every Friday, we had rehearsals to which all these people were invited! Bernstein was always around, Stephen Sondheim would pop in here and there, Jerry Bock, a lot of the music writers. It was extraordinary, It was crazy, like having history right in front of you, like going to college in six months and getting all this knowledge, this information... and watching him work"

"Especially, I think, in a piece that was sort of a resumèe of his whole Broadway career... " I venture.

"Yes, and it was a struggle for him; he wanted to get it right. Bring back these memories of his and document them. Basically, it was trying to get back these numbers that hadn't been written down, put them back together. There was a number from "High button shoes", the Mack Sennett number that they were trying to put together and then suddenly somebody, who came out of the blue, came up with this victrola in which they had to crank it to watch the film and like this, they had the material and were able to put it together. They had had only photographs and memories to work with up to that moment!"

"Fascinating" I can only whisper. This is the sort of Story that fascinates me and for those who know me or follow my work, it's no news that I love nothing more than a good Story. Well told. And that is just the kind of Story, being told by this also fascinating, intelligent man, that I love the most.

"Well, for "Mr Monotony" on the other hand, there was no recording and he had to rechoreograph from memory. Jerry didn't have a great memory. He had a spot memory but not the kind of one that could remember all exact steps so he had to recoreograph it. With "On the Town" it was the same thing. He brought in Betty Comden and Adolph Green. But there was no documentation about the choreography"

On The Town (Jerome Robbins’ Broadway). Copyright: Martha Swope

"Now I am more than curious again... "

"It was interesting because I had worked with him before in the Ballet world so I knew how he was running the rehearsals, the way he would run them with a ballet company. With Broadway though, you get hired to do a specific role and these Broadway dancers were not used to all this moving around ...and CHANGING! So he made some people angry!" he laughs "His process of "try this, do that, try this again" was not a linear process, it was much about experimentation but what was fascinating too, is that when watching all his shows together, unlike Fosse who had this particular style, the same way Balanchine had his, Robbins dives into cultures – sailors, the Hispanic community, he'll dive into the Asian, the Jewish communities and he wanted the dance to reflect these REAL people. He would create a new vocabulary for each show. He was trying NOT to be identified in the Musical world with his "step". His “step” was making those characters dance like a sailor, people from Puerto Rico. He was dealing with real people, making them dance like real people. And that was his brilliancy. And surely his biggest struggle – like in "West Side Story" making street gangs dance along the streets, looking natural and not like ballet dancers"

"Such a coincidence, well there are no coincidences, that I was just a few weeks ago at the Opera here in Vienna to watch a "Balanchine-Robbins Evening", whose work I believe to be fully misunderstood in most of the European Capitals and completely wronged here in Vienna, and I wrote in my critique how important it would be for Dancers, Directors and for the Audience to know (and understand) a little bit more of Robbins' work for Broadway – because his more "serious" (I hate this word) work is completely connected to it. And now, here I am, hearing you telling me all these stories and it is just like the circle came to an end"

West Side Story (Jerome Robbins’ Broadway) as Tony. Copyright: Martha Swope

"Jerry was not trained the way Dancers are trained today. He came from a different word. Out of Vaudeville. His information, his styles, his connections, are more theatre than they are classical ballet and that is what made his work so brilliant, so unique. His background as a performer informs very much his work. And on those days people were more versatile. A lot of dancers on those days went from Broadway to Ballet It was not uncommon for dancers to be trained in tap or other forms of dance – THAT tells you a lot about Jerry"

"... and HIS relation to the characters, to understand them... Now I know: he was connected to the "Actor's Studio"!"

"Of course! Sorry that I haven't answered your question before... At one point he started studying there with Marlon Brando and all those people, so a lot of that informed everything he did. Like "Who are you as a person? Where are you coming from? Who are your parents? What's your home life like?" and if you look at every one of his Ballets... Just think of "Dances at a Gathering". All people, they are real people and they have thoughts and ideas and as most of his ballets are private moments in which the audience gets a chance to sneak in... and as a dancer in a Robbins Ballet you very infrequently get a chance to address the audience while a Balanchine Ballet is much about presentation, to the audience. And that is why it was so interesting to watch those two men work side by side. When I got there (editorial note: The New York City Ballet) I thought, "This is really fascinating!". Two different forms of approach, which are equally valid. For me, working with him was easy because I came from a Musical Background as a child when I did all those shows... Thinking back; I don't think I have ever told them about that. I wish I had. And to think of that as a kid I was connected to Jerome Robbins before I even ever met him and worked with him. It was fascinating"

And I think again: Oh HOW I LOVE Stories, well-told Stories...

"Now that I stage Jerome Robbins' work, I feel like I've had the information of what he was working on and it is very different from when you're staging a Balanchine Ballet. A lot of Balanchine's focus was on music and imagery and "otherworldliness" whereas Jerry's was THIS world, the ground, the emotional state of the dancer and, you know... Truth. It's about truth, It's all about finding that character's truth. Like creating a character and having a beginning, middle and end! A story line!"

"And the audience is taking a voyeuristic glimpse of what is going on inside this character... "

"Yes, voyeuristic... we don't know that the audience is there. It's like in the "Afternoon of a Faun": the mirror is the audience. In a Balanchine Ballet you may do a series of pirouettes, you finish them and the audience applauds" he smiles.

"And you know that it's there" I add - the most self-evident, self-explanatory, obvious answer...

"Yes and this represents the idea that you are performing for appreciation. But for Jerry, the fourth wall is just another wall and the audience just gets to peek into a private moment"

Suddenly, thinking of a phenomenon so common in Europe and other countries, I say quite spontaneously "...and just think of this "Non-existing arrogance" when you are speaking about classical Ballet and Jerome Robbins who came from Vaudeville, Musicals, Broadway, "show-biz"... in Europe, in South-America there is such an arrogance as if people would imply that all this is not at all "legitimate Art"... they look down at show-biz..."

"I understand... And think about this: American Dancers were dancing during the 1930s and 40s Stories about things that had nothing to do with America – and if you think about it, Jerry's first Ballet was about American Sailors and Agnes de Mille's about American Cowboys. Both and many other choreographers were tired of European influence, they wanted to dance America henceforth the name "American Ballet Theatre". Theatre and America – we had Copeland, Bernstein and others, American Artists and our way of thinking, our own process in which we wanted to go away from certain patterns... Think of what Isadora Duncan, Martha Graham symbolize. Nearly radically they were saying "I want to be a woman, I don't want to be a part of Patriarchy... and it was anti-Europe, that's what it was, like "We moved here, we want to be on our own". A very radical turn. Away from the Fairies, the Aristocrats... Cowboys, sailors, Billy the Kid, Lizzy Borden were real people about whom we were telling Stories now..."

"Which Stories would Jerome Robbins be telling now?"

"Good question... what would he have done if he kept creating... with today's gay liberation and marriage? He was interested in what was going on on the street. Now. Although if you look at his work, it became more and more classical. He started experimenting with Bach. But he was still telling real people's stories. "Ives, Songs", for me one of his masterpieces, sort of autobiographical. About an older man, looking back at his life"

"Unfortunately I have never seen it" I must confess.

"It doesn't get done very often. I played the old man that basically walks through, kind of looking at the scrapbook of his life. He made it at end of his life. Quite beautiful. It has all these childhood images and old images and war images... just a man's life. Beautiful. He was also working in the musical theatre on what was called the "Papa piece" - his father, and probably about the McCarthy hearings, which he never discussed. He started that project but it never went anywhere. There's only some footage of it – with, I believe" and he bursts into laughter "three or four Jewish guys sitting in a Matzo soup bowl"

"Oh, that's good" I burst into laughter also...

"But back to your question. He was always investigating but I think he would have addressed his homosexuality. Quite an issue for his generation"

Rehearsing “Jerome Ronnins’ Broadway). Copyright: Martha Swope

"Don't you think that some people should never die?" I say "All these Stories. We are still listening to them nowadays, you know. So beautiful"

He ponders for a while, like reorganizing his memory and says "Interestingly neither he nor Balanchine have left auto-biographies. I think it'll be the same with Baryshnikov either. I don't think they are interested in writing their Stories. It is for us to try to figure out. I think we, Dance and Dancers, we live so at the moment that it is not important for us to leave something behind. It's all about what we're doing at the moment. And what we leave behind are the ballets. And they'll change. They won't mean the same thing they did before without the dancers that danced them originally. Without the choreographers teaching them how to do it. It all evolves. It becomes blurry. And that is what is so difficult about staging his work. HE is missing. He was a great director directing his ballets. He could personally fit into a dancer, which meant that he could tell a dancer what to do to get a performance out of him. That's hard. I don't care how good you are at staging the ballets, it's directing the dancer into a performance that counts"

I keep thinking of the Jerome Robbins Trust, of the Balanchine Trust and of so many others – which I strongly criticize and can only say "This is all so fragile, so coochy-coo to temper with it... "

"Fragile is the word. You know, Dance is so interesting. When an actress does a play, all she has is the script, the play, right? And she has a director. She doesn't have the original interpreter coming in, teaching her how to do it. But that's what we try to do in Ballet. You have the original Ballerina coming in and telling "this is what I used to do", so in a way it takes away from the person trying to learn the role, to find his or her performance out of it and make it his or her own... The more I performed the more I realized that I had to try to erase any performer image or idea of a role... "

I nearly interrupted him to show him a book that I was reading again and that was on top of my desk. Lillian Hellmann's "Pentimento" and described to him the way Lillian wrote about Tallulah Bankhead's performance on stage and Bette Davis' on-screen of "Regina" in "The little foxes". Davis did her own thing even having seen Tallulah, who created the role. Two completely different ways of creating the same character. No copies, no influences.

"My reference while rehearsing "The prodigal Son" was Mikhail Baryshnikov, whom I had seen on stage and who was teaching me the role. There was no documentation of Eddie Vilella doing it. Neither from Serge Lifar. It's hard to wash away a performance that you've seen. But I realized that the difference was that I was ten years younger than Misha, so I was better suited for it than he was because it's a child who's running away. What I was more concerned with was this usefulness and I focused on that, wondering and finding all these new things – and the adventure of it! Also, I realized that Eddie Vilella's performance, as famous as it is, exists only on paper, only how the writers write about it and in photographs, that's all that's left of it. I didn't want to work with anybody. After a certain point, I didn't feel I had to work with anyone, and especially after I had done it for a couple of years; first at Ballet Theatre and then at the New York City Ballet. I understood that piece instantly, the shape of it, the period and its emotion. I understood, because of my background in musical theatre, the story that was being told. And by dancing with two dancers who had worked with Balanchine (one of them Suzanne Farrell), I felt that I was quite close to Mr Balanchine in a way and to the character: who am I? What do I want? I'm dissatisfied, I wanna leave, I'm angry, I'm curious... and then I come home for forgiveness. I could understand those basic principles... "

After he said that, I could finally stop wondering how much he instinctively understood/understands this prodigal Son. He had told me just that.

It is so very special to "look back" at someone's career being side by side with this same person. An enriching moment – not only for my readers but also for myself. Was I starting to understand this man better and because of that getting another form of looking into his work? And how much was he intentionally revealing about himself when he started talking about Robbins' and, for example, "Ives, Songs" - the autobiographical work that, as it seems, impressed, marked him so much? Feeling "at home and relaxed" with him while talking and making this beautiful "excursion" through his life, history and soul, I knew I could venture a question I would not have dared to ask anyone else. A sharp question. But I had to ask it – you see, I still believe that one never regrets what he has done – just what he has NOT done.

End of Part Two: The third part of this interview will be published online on February 7th, 2022.