About Age, Memories, Comparisons and Gratitude.

The first and second parts of this interview were published online on January 10th & 24th 2022. To read them just go to the Main Menu and enter either "Content => Interviews" or "Blog"

"Robbie, using some "pluralis majestatis", I mean, "the royal we," I ask you plainly: How are we feeling about ageing?" Yes, it was out. The question...

The afternoon of a Faun (Robbins) with Darcy Kistler. Copyright: Paul Kolnik

Taking it as the most normal thing ever, he started going inside himself – an Interview is a very intimate affair and, a fascinating process, his very own process was happening again, in front of my very eyes. You are surely wondering what I am talking about but after such a long interview, made in many days, I began to observe his way of understanding and working on a question, unravelling it. First, he goes inside himself carrying the question, the question itself awakes other questions and thoughts and memories that become "alive", after discussing, verbalizing thoughts and ideas and going through all the possibilities, additional thoughts and their analysis he gives me an answer. But because of the existence of this "innate" process; a much more "complex", "rich" answer. Sometimes I say that certain interviews are like a "love affair" between an Artiste and the audience. Yes. As intimate as that. I get this chance to travel within the soul and the heart of the interviewed person in such intimacy – the kind of intimacy that only best friends and lovers can share. No Obstacles and barriers. Just pure frankness. Openness. Fascinating.

Slaughter on tehth Avenue (Balanchine) with Suzann Farrell. Copyright: Paul Kolnik.

"When I talked about Jerome Robbins' ballet "Ives, Songs", a very autobiographical work about a man's life and looking backwards, like going through an album with photographs and memories, I think that as you geld older you begin to reflect about the past and, I think, what happens for me is, of course, you get wiser, you try not to make the same mistakes that you made as a child or as a young man and you see other people living their lives and making the same mistakes. I think that for me I became more filled with gratitude for the people I had the privilege to be and work with. Being in the presence of Jerome Robbins and having ballets made for me by him is, you know, now is just extraordinary. When I was in my 20s it was just normal to be doing ballets by Agnes DeMille, Jerome Robbins, Twyla Tharp and this makes me feel that I was part of a generation... what an interesting time to live: it makes me grateful for the choreographers I got to work with"

"Yes, oh yes!" I had to say.

In G Major (Robbins), Rehearsal with Darcy Kistler. Copyright: Steven Caras.

"You know, as you live longer, you observe more and you have a kind of knowledge that, I think, sometimes is honoured and sometimes not... so, I guess this is one of the points I wanted to talk about: Aging and age in this country... we tend to always look for the youthful approach, the new, the innovated with the "top-notch choreographers" that make it big and, on the other hand, the ones that have this, let's call it "longevity" like Twyla, Bill T. Jones, Mark Morris with their continuous success, growing experience... "

"I have to interrupt you, sorry, to ask a question. Talking about the "new, the innovated", don't you think that we in the Americas (now, here is Ricardo, the Brazilian, not the Austrian talking) tend to think so because we are countries deprived of any kind of memory? Countries that believe that something created 5 years ago is already "old"? Don't you think it has something to do with that?"

Western Symphiny (Balanchine). Copyright: Paul Kolnik.

"Possibly, possibly... but I think that when you look at repertory in Ballet companies, a certain amount is preserved, America has its Ballet History, but not only with American choreographers but also with Balanchine, who considered himself American... I just think that we only have a memory of things that are considered successful" and he adds a bit sarcastically "and I think longevity makes things more successful but talking about "historical ballets", there is a lot of observation and questions about what these ballets mean NOW, right? Like we talked about "La Bayadére" like we talked about which are the new stories are we telling now? We are looking for new inspiration and here in this country, it usually comes from the youth and" he says jokingly "that is the hot item. That is what producers are willing to put their money on... It is of course very healthy to nurture new talent, the same way it is important to look back at ballets from the past, re-analyze them and see how they can hold up in the present context. This is something that "Joffrey Ballet" did very well – especially with these huge revivals like "Sacre", "The Green Table"! A very important part of history. Not holding partially to history is very dangerous, it'd be dangerous to let go of the "Diaghilev" and the "Americana" Ballets, we don't see now the Agnes DeMille and the Tudor repertories as much as we used to. I am afraid that they're viewed as "old-fashioned" by some"

Quiet City (Robbins). Copyright: Paul Kolnik

Orpheus (Balanchine). Copyright: Steven Caras

"Why do you think that this sort of "selection" - let me call it this way – is being made? Who decides what is and is not old-fashioned?"

"I think it is all about knowledge. Dancers are very present at "the moment". They know who they have grown up with. Many dancers today don't know who Makarova was, who Patricia MacBride was or Gelsey Kirkland or Cynthia Gregory... they don't know these people. They only know what they see in front of them. Many young ballet directors don't know much about what happened before they started dancing professionally. There is a big gap now, the non-existence of the hard part of being a director, doing all that massive amount of research and staying connected to the present, be it his own company's history or whatever... And I think that is what age gives someone like us" he points at me "'cause we can have experienced this whole time, modern dance melting into the ballet world in a very organic way and seeing, you know, European and American Dance melt into each other. There is, what I call, a globalized "look" to dancing and choreography. There is not much of a distinction anymore as the styles started melting together. There are positives and negatives to that. We have experienced that while we were growing up: the very "English" way of dancing, there was even a "German" way of dancing, a "Russian" way, and even a distinction between the Bolshoi and the Kirov... and between the American Ballet Theatre and the New York City Ballet – even Joffrey had its style! Think of that! Own vocabularies; it was a fascinating time to come into the Dance world – there was this "huge Buffet of different things to eat"!"

"So, so rich..."

Vienna Waltzes (Balanchine) with Patricia MacBride. Copyright: Paul Kolnik

"Yes, Ricardo, so rich! And how exciting it was to see what Mr Balanchine was cooking up, what MacMillan would do and Ashton, Jiri Killian – I don't want to go on with a list but it WAS an exciting time... what I am seeing now is that it is hard to distinguish from one choreographer to the next. Sometimes I sit in the theatre, without a program and try to figure out which choreographer I'm seeing and sometimes this is very difficult. I donÄt know it that is a good thing... so that's interesting... you know when you're seeing a Martha Graham dance, a Merce Cunningham piece, a Paul Taylor – and that is an important part of being a choreographer; to develop your own vocabulary, your own style, your own message, your own world, your own "home with your own family"... "

"It is scary sometimes to talk to "younger" people about this and realize by looking into their eyes that they are not understanding at all what I am talking about. To go back to what you have just said: it is knowledge" I have to add.

"Absolute, absolutely Knowledge, Ricardo. It's also looking around and observing: what it is that Graham did, what did Cunningham did? Seeing that the information was completely individual. Think of Martha – she developed a class... "

"A whole school of dancing... "

"Yes, just like Balanchine who had a whole school, a whole way of dancing. You can see it right away. So that's what I think is important that we try to instil in our young dancers, in our choreographers when they look forward to trying to distinguish themselves from the others. When you have something like classical ballet, you have already the vocabulary, it is how you stretch it, how you take it. Balanchine modernized it not only in its language, using parallel, being much more athletic for example but changing the "mood". The greatest example for me being "Agon", in which the woman has equally as much power as the man in that pas de deux. A turning point in sexual politics, it gave the woman power. And, don't forget he was working with Arthur Mitchell, he put a black man and a white woman dancing together, he was dealing with identity politics – and that in the 1950s. He was more than modern in that way. He "heard the music that we couldn't hear", yes!"

As he says this I remembered that in 1957 a big scandal was caused by the film "Island in the Sun" just because the character played by Joan Fontaine touched the character played by Harry Belafonte – the film could not be released in the Southern States...

Leaves are fading ( ) with Lisa Houlton. Copyright: Martha Swope

"Stravinsky war very hard to listen to for the average audience member but he understood that his "mission" was to educate us, musically. It wasn't just about to entertain although he did that very well too with beautiful ballets, gorgeous steps, musicality and he maintained the technique which still to this day... Think of "Theme and Variations". It is the hardest ballet for a ballerina and a male dancer to dance! And that was done in the 1940s!!!!"

"I didn't know that... Knowledge... or the lack of it" I say " Let me get back to this point: one day, here in Vienna, I was talking to quite a lovely dancer, not a kid anymore, and mentioned The ABTJacqueline Kennedy Onassis School and said "Oh, Jackie would have been proud of that!". Do you know what she said? She asked WHO exactly was Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis... ". I won't go as far as a choreographer I once worked with who said "A dancer who doesn't know what a square root is, can't dance" but really... "

"I have to confess that when I was a young student, in my teenage years, I had to learn so much... I knew who the dancers were around and in front of me, I knew the dancers who were dancing at that moment but I had to learn who Maria Tallchief was, Tanaquil Le Clercq... and so many people I had never seen dance and there were not many videos floating around on the internet..."

"There were no videos", I laugh, "But as you said: you were in your teenage years... still a very young boy: it is quite a normal thing to "learn" during your young years!"

"Yes", laughing too, "that's an excuse" (he winks) "but I think that we, dancers, are only concerned, when we are young, with the things that are right in front of us, the immediacy, today's training, pointing our feet, getting better now! And THAT IS WHAT AGE gives you "

We had come to the point!

"Age gives you experience, it gives you knowledge, a wealth of observation that you can't have when you're in your teens or 20s or even 30s. If I could dance now, with the information I have, I would be a "genius" - I would dance much more efficiently, I would KNOW so much more!"

Yes, and now we were quite close to what I had been waiting for... When he started saying "I think Merril Ashley said once", I knew all of a sudden that we not only had come to the point I have been waiting for but that we also share the same opinion. He continued describing his feeling precisely with his hand "As you're getting older, your Artistry is growing but your body is failing you as you grow as an Artist. These two things are happening. And there's only this one period when you're in your late twenties, early thirties when everything comes together. Your body is in good shape and you're becoming this Artist. You know nothing in your twenties, you just want to do lots of pirouettes and jump. And you're learning, right? And then when you get to the end of your twenties you start to know yourself and what you want and these characters that you portray and how to do your movements effectively, how to hold back when you need to. It is an interesting "problem" that we have... "

For me it is as if a "quick film" of so many experiences had been shown quite quickly in front of my eyes: My interpretation of this "moment", Lilian Hellmann's words about "Julia" (And Vanessa Redgrave's face portraying this character exactly at that point "when everything gets together"), many talks about this issue, many discussions about this fragile theme, culminating on one of my last reviews writing about Davide Dato's (Vienna State Ballet) "same moment" while performing "A Suite of Dances", Jerome Robbins' exquisite choreography made for Baryshnikov. Yes, a quick film. And what a film it was!

"Some people with choreography... their first piece is the best piece they'll ever do. And some choreographers wait 20 years before they get a great piece, so, unfortunately, the people that have early success usually have more longevity. That was one of Jerry's major issues. The first ballet he ever did, "Fancy Free" was a humongous hit so he was always trying to live up to that, to this enormous success. On the other hand, Balanchine just kept going at the beginning, I think he did a lot of things that were not hits..."

Right, I think, just remembering "Balustrade" - long after "Apollo" - a forgotten ballet conducted by Stravinsky, danced by Tamara Toumanova and Tatiana Leskova (who tends to make quite "a thing" of this ballet in her "memoirs" - a severe case of "Making History"). It had awful critiques and just played for four performances.

"...until he finally did "Apollo". But anyway, I think Age, in the dancing World, is a blessing and also a curse. I am just surprised that I am 61 and I am still very much involved on the stage and making new work and still teaching! But even though I think that I am respected I still have to tell young Students my background. I am an educator and I know that they don't know everything and I don't expect them to. In this country, we don't teach dance history at such a young age, just much later. We don't teach music. Not like in Europe... We barely have time to teach mime – that is very much of a lost art! We are focusing right now too much on athleticism" he says somehow sadly. "When you get older you have more time and it's fun. But also when you gel older, it's more difficult to watch dance, I think. Because you have your memories, the kind of "I saw Suzanne Farrell do the Diamonds pas de deux – so it is really hard to get that out of my memory... I saw Peter Martins do "Apollo", I saw Eddie Vilella do "The prodigal son", I saw Bart Cook do "Square Dance" or Gelsey doing "Giselle": so it is hard for me to get those powerful, masterful performances out of my head and be able to look at things with fresh eyes and a fresh heart. It is complicated. I try very hard. But always go back to whom we first saw, to the first impression, to the one that moved us the most. That is what is hard about getting old. You have a more critical eye. You have more history. More baggage. This enormous gift that also stands in your way while seeing something for the first time"

"I understand that, Robbie. How well, I understand that! Especially why you have seen so much... there are infinite possibilities of comparing things and it is hard not to!"

"That is the point. You've just said it. It's hard not to compare! Because you have that memory in your head! Even if try to erase it. It's impossible. You want to give the dancer to see it with fresh eyes but you can't. Also, our memories can be a blessing and a curse!

I don't want to sound like one of those elderly people hanging on to the past. But we have our past. And sometimes it gets in the way of being at the present. But with age, there comes a lot of wisdom and gratitude. I have actually made a list of all the people I am grateful to – because they are the ones that got me to where I am at – it starts with my mother and my father, who allowed me to take ballet, a wonderful teacher I had, Marsha Woody, when I was young, she was wonderful and very strict, brought lots of people to give us classes, made it possible for me to get scholarships and is responsible for everything I know. I am grateful to have been hired by Lucia Chase, grateful to Mikhail Baryshnikov who gave me all those parts... When you start getting older you realize that you wouldn't be here if it would not have been for all these people that came and gave you those opportunities. Peter Martins gave me a job. Jerome Robbins gave me a job. Gratitude. Yes, I worked my ass off but my story could have turned out completely different it would have been another cast of characters that didn't particularly care for my dancing. So, with age comes clarity of your Story. You see the help you had from those people.

I would like to end this interview by thanking all of my teachers, all of the people that hired me, all of the friends that loved me and stood by me and took care of me because I wouldn't have been the person I am if it hadn't been for them. That is a mature older man looking back at life, not a young person who is just taking and expecting and wanting and grabbing. I don't think I even believed in myself in my teens and twenties. Those people believed in me more than I did. I just needed to do the work, to work hard and be in the right place. There's more to that list – but I reflect. When you get older you reflect on your life – and reality. It makes me happy to do that.

And what makes me look forward is curiosity. The curiosity of what is going to happen. I'm curious. I'm curious"

And that is the reason why he is still so young and just like a good wine, gets better and better with time!