Giorgio Madia - Thoughts about Beauty - An Interview: Part 2

You can find the first part of this interview if you scroll down to September 5th.

Giorgio Madia makes me think of quotes about Beauty throughout the millenniums... and I mention Confucius' quote „Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it" or Victor Hugo who said, „To see beauty is to see light". To that Giorgio reacts sharply to say that perhaps in Confucius' time there may have been more Beauty all around than in our present world, but to agree with Hugo's thought.

And as we continue, I ask „Do you know who Thomas Leonard was?". He answers „No", and I add „Neither do I" (we must laugh again) „but I read one quote of his concerning Beauty that I liked very much: „Integrity is Beauty". Isn't it just what is missing?"

„This is very deep, Ricardo, because what is a beautiful person? It's that, We all agree that to be beautiful, Beauty must also be „inside", and that is also integrity and the beauty of the soul"

Then we went on to Emily Dickinson and her affirmation „Beauty is not caused. It is" (which is a favourite of mine) and the realization that it is as simple as that. “Well, at least it could be. But thinking about the nauseating "political correctness state of mind" in which we find ourselves now, it would be nearly considered an „insult" to call somebody just beautiful... Let's think of dance as a mere „job", OK? It is of course inspiration, a vocation but is also a „job". A job, the same way a stewardess has a job. And for it she must be thin otherwise she could not pass by when a serving car is stationed on the aisle of the plane, right?" I ask a smiling Giorgio.

With Diana Vishneva

„I believe that this also involves efficiency. A not-so-beautiful body can be efficient too... but people who don't think the same way we do, are forgetting that Dance is a visual Art. A pleasure for the eye. There are lots of wonderful (and very efficient) dancers who will never be able to find a job because of the visual issue. That's a fact. Not long ago" he continues „while on a TV Programme in Italy as a judge, there was a wonderful dancer who, I thought, was never going to be able to get a job. She had everything. Except for a good figure. Of course, this theme came up and there was a big discussion about political correctness, prejudices, body shaming etc. and you know how people react nowadays about such issues. On the other hand, we have to admit that Dance, and especially Ballet is a very elitist Art, and in every elitist situation – be it in Ballet or not - there's pre-selection and more selection and a selection of the selection. It is not a democracy in which everyone could do anything. I do believe that Dance is a wonderful thing. Everyone should dance, take courses, and enjoy it. The world would be a much better place if everyone could dance but as a performing art it is a visual art, therefore, it should be judged by visual logic and criteria. This matters a lot. Of course, there are thousands of other parameters that you can add to „the pot"... "

„You just hit the gist of the matter" is my answer to that „and as you said. It is a visual Art and if you close your eyes you'll just listen to the music".

„Although" he adds naughtily „lately there has been a great need to do just that!" - This time we both just broke down laughing.

„Yes, doing this, even if sometimes necessary, is also getting difficult at times" I say „Not long ago, I have witnessed a „Swan Lake" in which you could only hear horns coming out of the Orchestra pit. More like a „fanfare", more like a military orchestra than Tchaikowsky. Oh, this reminds me of music and something I wanted to ask: Just yesterday, I was listening to Leontyne Price and her wonderful „Death of Butterfly" in which she sends Gioia (Note: her son) away so she can die alone. It is tragic, suffering... but I could not help thinking „she suffers, she dies so beautifully". And this is the point. Please, don't understand me wrongly for I am not a sadist, but as a performer, she did it beautifully, Puccini wrote it beautifully... „

„There is so much involved in this. The composer, the Artist on stage... I don't have particularly any attraction to anything that is sad but there is obviously a composer who felt obliged to put so much beauty into that high peak moment. Is it drama? Yes. But at the highest intensity that you can get."

„Like in „Wuthering Heights", „Romeo and Juliet" which are beautifully (romantically) well-written. Sad but beautifully written or Beautiful although terribly sad?". Suddenly one point occurs to me "I was thinking of a quote that we had already mentioned... When being totally honest as a Writer, Composer, Artist... Do you remember that we talked about „Integrity is Beauty"? And I cannot help but think that this does not only concern sadness... what about ugliness? Can it also be beautiful? And think of „Odile". That creature is a „bitch", the evil's personification of wickedness and malice but „beautiful".”

„Yes, Ricardo but her character is not beautiful, in the moral sense she is not beautiful... In the aesthetic sense, we want to portray her as Beautiful. The Devil, if you believe in religion, is beautiful. He needs to be tempting and nothing can be tempting if it is not beautiful. He wants to lure you and he needs to be more attractive. Just think of „Maleficent" in Disney's „Sleeping Beauty". She is beautiful."

„Fascinating!" I scream, interrupting him „ I was exactly thinking oh her! Also the Queen in „Snow White"! Remember her talking to the mirror on the wall? A beautiful, sensual, tempting woman... Even if she wanted to kill poor Snow White – well, she should have for Snow White is the most boring girl in the world!"

Once more Giorgio has to laugh loudly about that but in less than a second, I can see that something is going on in his mind. I realized that we were concluding our discussion „The word, Beauty, it has disappeared too! Is it on the News?" he jokes „Is it on critiques? On Theatre programmes, booklets? We refer to and listen about "the interconnection between the space and its relationship of the Humankind... But never the word BEAUTY„ he recites as I feel fascinated by the nearly plastic and theatrical imitation of „pseudo-intellectualism" he is giving."

„Beauty", I repeat „and... you are completely right. The word has disappeared. I had never realized it."

„Recently I had a very interesting conversation with a very famous Architect in Italy. We were talking about a buildings which he planned that I can watch from my mother's Apartment And I said: "May I tell you one thing? I'm sorry, I know it was not requested but, because it comes out of me, I have the urge to say it: In these buildings, that you are so proud of... I find neither Beauty nor Harmony in them". He looked quite surprised at me and said „Strange... in architecture now days we never talk about Beauty. Nor about Harmony. It is not a theme for us", making me totally speechless. "Do you mean to say that a project that is built, to stay supposedly forever, in the middle of a city and that is not a theme, a criterion in your work?" To which he answered me using very clever words like “statement” and "modularity", "representation", etc. And I thought: You can explain to me whatever you want. I love explanations, like in a museum, about paintings, different works of art... I am very glad when somebody explains to me anything that I don't know in my ignorance or superficiality but to admit that beauty and harmony, were not in his concept, not in the concept of someone who manages millions and millions of Euros in the construction of buildings - and I was talking to an Architect, not an Engineer – is not understandable! „

„The Architect, the one responsible for the Artistic side of it all... in connection with functionality, etc. OK. But visually, artistically, contextually the responsible person for the project..." is my surprised remark.

„Yes... the process of creation doesn't have to be just in your head but also in your stomach. You can take it up from your stomach to your brain and analyze it. Although it is not a thing that you rationalize, it is something that you feel. But who can say nowadays simply „I didn't find it beautiful"? "I don't feel it". Who has the courage at present times to say that and not sound "silly"?"

„I know... „ I add, while thinking of Dance.

„Funny enough, I was talking once to a Dancer in Amsterdam, in fact, a very „Europeanized" American Choreographer, who was a Forsythe Dancer for many years, etc. Artistically, America is many decades behind us although they are now catching up. But there's something that I have always appreciated very much in America, although the country is sometimes despised and Americans are treated as„superficial". They are much more connected with their belly and common sense than us with our fucked-up brains and Intellectualism. Therefore, they are much freer to say „I like it" or „I don't like it" or „It's beautiful", „It's ugly", etc. Just like a "healthy person" would do spontaneously. Not rationalizing it, just letting emotions flow... They don't have a problem with externalizing feelings like „What do you think? What do you feel about it?". We, Europeans, do, we do. We like to appear deeper and sound more profound... „

„It'd be so much simpler... This freedom of expressing oneself more simply... Just think of the way critics used to call – not insultingly – Calla's voice: „ gran voce brutta" (Note: the ugly big voice) That was a fact. It was nothing else than expressing simply what they felt. Nowadays people wouldn't even understand that this was not meant as an insult... The „big ugly voice" was beautiful, just the same way that Schwarzkopf's „beautiful small voice„ was also beautiful!" But say it? It'd be unheard of..."

„Yes, because what people mean is the technical beauty of the voice, not the beauty of depth, emotional richness, and expression of it... that's what people don't understand... This reminds me of a documentary/Interview I have seen many years ago and that I should see again. In it there are many things we talked about today, some things I agree with, some things I had already known, and some other things I had always thought about. It is a consideration about „Beauty in the Arts", by Sir Roger Vernon Scruton, very conservative,at times excessively conservative (and I am considering only esthetics!) in which it is said: that "Beauty is economical". What do you say to that?"

„Economical, Giorgio? Please explain..." I wonder.

„Yes, Beauty makes economical sense. In other words – people may not agree with this statement right now but think of what is beautiful; it always stands the test of time and what is not doesn't. Or you see a beautiful neighborhood. There the prices will be higher than in the ugliest ones. Antique objects and furniture? The same! So, somehow, Beauty is sustainable and there is a certain kind of efficiency too when you talk about Beauty. Many people don't talk about Beauty, even deny it but at the End of the day, they are impressed by Beauty or by somebody or something beautiful. But to get back to the gist of the matter: I think I have always believed in that and, honestly, I think that because I was pretty when I was young, many doors were opened for me that wouldn't have been opened if it wasn't for it. See?". And as we look at this picture we understand quite clearly what he means.

This makes me remember my best friend, Marie Louise Göransson telling me a story when we were teenagers: You see two girls. One is beautiful. The other is ugly. You have the chance to talk to both. You go directly to the beautiful one. But just when she turns out to be arrogant or boring or dull, you turn to the ugly one. And then you may be surprised by her character which turns her into a beautiful girl.

But Beauty, either as a word or as a symbol or as an ideal, its disappearance or the form in which it is being ignored... Perhaps we just have to accept the fact that this questioning of ours, starts "coincidentally" at the time we turn to be "of a certain age". Our principles, all we believe in, our criteria must and will give place to newer ones from a younger generation. Yes, that is right and a fact of life. But it is "No" when it comes to stereotyped "cliché" Artists who cover themselves with the "thin coat" of pseudo-intellectuality. They are just boring.

Thank you, Giorgio Madia, for such a lovely Afternoon, Talk. Thank you for giving us so much to think about, to discuss. And also for the strong cup of tea!

Ricardo Leitner

April 10th, 2022