Prisca Zeisel, ex-Principal, Bavarian State Ballet (now Mikhailovsky Theatre/ ST. Petersburg): An Interview about "La Bayadère"

Prisca Zeisel, Principal, Bavarian State Ballet: An interview (July 30th, 2023) or “An analysis of Nikiya and Gamzatti” (“La Bayadère” or otherwise also called “The Temple Dancer”)

It has been quite some time since I started following Miss Zeisel's steps in the world of Dance. Quite some time.

She had just entered the Corps de Ballet from the Vienna State Ballet, fresh from school, at the time under the direction of Manuel Legris and it was obvious for everyone with a trained eye that there was much more to be expected. Much more.

Copyright: Serghei Cherciu / Bavarian State Ballet

Her presence on stage was soon noticed by many. Not only a very young dancer who combined a very good technique with sensitivity. But a very wide-eyed young Dancer who questioned everything „behind the steps", very inquisitive and analytical about the parts she was playing (This attitude has not changed). An intelligent young Dancer who was definitely destined for a brilliant future.

But I ask you: Aren't these the qualities that differentiate the person from a person, the dancer from a dancer, and Artist from Artist?

That is why „her first Nikiya" did not come as a surprise to me.

Not at all. I had expected a brilliant performance and she did not disappoint me.

What I could not have known is that her interpretation would cause such an impact on me. A ne plus ultra of a performance caused by a deep understanding and precise analysis.

This is the reason for this interview. Perhaps an unusual kind of interview because we will not deal with steps, technique etc., but... just wait. You will be able to read and find it out by yourself very soon.

After warmly greeting each other (and complaining a bit about an unusual heat-wave – 37 C is not „normal" in Vienna – we came to the „pointe": “La Bayadère”!

„Prisca, thank you so much for taking your time to “chat” with me. Today it is all about “La Bayadère”, a ballet I know you are very fond of. It is a known fact that, very seldom, across the world, there are dancers who dance both roles; Nikiya and Gamzatti. I have to emphasize that for our readers but I do not want to tell you more about my ideas for this particular interview and about what I am keeping as a secret in the back of my mind. I do not want to influence you and lead you in any direction, alright?"

She smiles that lovely smile of hers, that sometimes reminds me of the duality with which Lewis Carrol's Cheshire Cat – and its smile – is sometimes shown when correctly portrayed, and just says: „Yes!"

„Let us begin with Gamzatti. WHO is Gamzatti for you?"

She looks down, as if she would be looking inside her (Neurolinguistics followers would immediately say that is she telling „the truth") and says quite straightforwardly: „For me sue is a well-bred princess, a girl who has everything, who is given everything she desires. And also well educated. On top of that, she knows who she is and has her singular posture, not only physically but towards life itself! This is a well-bred noblewoman who ultimately falls in love with Solor"

„Is she also spoiled and pampered?", I ask.

„Yes, perhaps one can say so. Yes, too.", and then she quickly adds „But this could be also the result of her „status" which leads her to another kind of life. Status, money, servants, power! It is as if she is nearly entitled to be spoiled... „

I have to think a bit about that but realize that I agree with her.

„I don't know, Prisca, if you have been following the long, boring dilemma that is going on for months, about „La Bayadère". People, of course very radical „politically correct" ones, have been „throwing stones" at this particular ballet because it portrays a very „colonialistic" image of India (Their words, not mine) "

„I am well aware of that, Ricardo!"

„To be quite honest, I cannot stand this radicalism anymore... The same thing that happened with “Gone with the wind”. To forbid it would be like saying that slavery never existed and this could be another case of “Making History”, like the book by Stephen Fry„

She smiles a sad smile, and just adds „If it is like this, well, we should not play anything anymore!" (And I catch myself thinking of all slaves, odalisques, love-sick Myrtha, Chinese, Gypsies (politically corrected: Roma) and all the others prototypes of races and religion that inhabit not only the World of Ballet, but the theatre (Othello for example) and the world of Opera and Operetta (Butterfly, Turandot, Gilbert and Sullivan's “Pirates of Penzance” etc.)

„Starting with Delibes' „Lakmé" but wherever you look you could interpret things as „not politically correct". Not long ago I saw a version of „Swan Lake" in which Odille is a WHITE Swan (Note: there are a few “Swan Lakes” like that, even a Baryshnikov's version that, as his brilliant „Don Quixote" were not maintained in the ABT's repertoire for reasons unknown to me) which made me think immediately of other “more conventional” versions. Why is Odette, the good girl, white and Odete, the bad one, is black? Shouldn't they forbid that too? I am being cynical, Prisca, but when I think that some (badly administered) Ballet Companies as in Berlin and Vienna among others do not wish to perform „The Nutcracker" because of racial reasons. On the other hand, pieces such as „March, Waltz, Polka", which during the finale (Note: Radetzky March) mock, and insult the Austrian mentality are „OK", „acceptable", and can be shown. Like the old saying: Every „truth" has two sides or, better, „One can twist the truth"! But sorry for making this „speech". This is an issue that is very close to my heart”, I have to say laughing “But it is true! Well, it is time to return to our central theme", I say jokingly, „We now know how you see Gamzatti, a role you have danced before. But how do you see and feel Nikiya? I am very curious about that!"

„Nikiya", she sighs „is quite difficult to describe. For one thing she is very loyal, faithful, and true to herself but on the other hand she is together with Solor even though this could not be described as „socially" acceptable when talking of India, another century and all the prejudice that existed on those days! She was “just” a Temple dancer"

Copyright: Nicholas MacKay / Bavarian State Bellet

„Aha!„ is my only comment. I am thrilled and can hardly await how this is going to continue.

„When I dance „her", of course, I can only see Solor as my „warrior", the strong man I fell in love with. I have to be in the role and not exercise any critiques on her", she wisely adds.

„But couldn't she also be a bit of a „Social climber" too?", It was time to throw the „hook, line and sinker", „Exactly like Solor is also one? He is also not on the same „social level" as Gamzatti". I can see how fast Miss Zeisel's mind is working by the way she looks.

„Perhaps... although I think that if she would be a real social climber she would have thought „OK, I am not taking Solor but someone more important like the High Brahmin'', don't you think?"

„But Solor is two things that the High Brahmin isn't. He is young and handsome!"

„That is right, but that is why I said that she is a faithful soul. She may think that it may not be right or even realistic to be in love with Solor but the feelings do exist. She is powerless against that. They have promised their love to each other. She feels attached to him. There is surely a big conflict inside of her"

„They have sworn eternal love to each other. „His" love doesn't last that long, is it not true? At the moment the serpent bites her and she is dying, he turns completely to Gamzatti and simply „moves on" with her, right? Another question: who did the „coaching"?"

“Well, a great part of it was done by Laurent (Note: Laurent Hilaire), who explained incredibly the historical situation, and peculiarities of those times, in that certain geographical position. Not only this but he also explained so much about the characters, emotionally, he gave us a lot! In other words: he enriched us with extremely precious background information! Later on, we worked with Rafaella Renzi and Patrice Bart (Note: the Choreographer of this version). Rafaella, who had been here back in 2016, knew me already as Gamzatti and helped me a lot to build my Nikiya. Patrice and Rafaella, who is his main assistant, were here together. They gave us not only lots of inputs but did the final polish"

„Because of the very interesting fact that you now dance both roles, I must ask how is it that you see the movement language (or vocabulary) between Nikiya and Gamzatti? Do you see many differences? Are there foci that are only Gamzatti's, and others that belong exclusively to Nikiya?"

„Funny and especially because today you have mentioned „Swan Lake". I think that you can compare both of them to Odette and Odile. I remember some corrections that I have received during the dialogue between Gamzatti and Nikiya: I knew it from Gamzatti's „side" then from Nikiya's “side” but as I had to exchange roles and then played Gamzatti again (Note: in the same Season), my coach told me „Wait, wait... now you are Gamzatti, not Nikiya!”. Nikiya is more introspective, her movements are more reflective of her interior life, and Gamzatti is fierce.Nearly ferocious. And everything she feels „comes out to surface". Stronger movements too, I'd say. Nikiya tries also to be stronger but her „dialogue" is more of an interior quality. She tries to bring it out. Gamzatti does not need to try, it is natural for her. She knows who she is, and what she wants and has practically the assurance that things are going to be „her way". Interior vs. Exterior!", and while saying all that, I was blessed to watch a performance that was made exclusively for me. Yes! While speaking of both characters, she moved and gesticulated alternatively, going back and forth, from one character to the other and back. Fascinating.

(Please note, as mentioned at the beginning of this interview, that while answering questions and reflecting about them, Miss Zeisel has the custom of looking down, as if looking at her interior. As Miss Zeisel just said: “...her movements are more reflective of her interior life”. So much to Nikiya – Think about that).

„But when she (Nikiya) holds the knife to kill Gamzatti, she is an extrovert, she is strong... Could it be that at this precise the roles become inverted? At this exact moment, Gamzatti is timid, afraid„

„She is taken by surprise and her fear lets her look as if she had been overpowered. Furthermore, she cannot believe that someone would say „no" to her determined wishes! It is the first time in life that someone refuses something to her. „You cannot have that!” and „It's not like this". She withdraws when Nikiya says „No, Stop! He has promised his love to me! He is my Solor, not yours!"

„I must add, Prisca, something I felt quite intensely during the last performance of „The Temple Dancer" (as this ballet may also be called). Your Gamzatti is very cleverly built. Even at those moments when Gamzatti pretends to be so „extremely sweet", you never let the public, for one single moment, be cheated. Yes, she is pretending to be sweet but the public sees how „evil" she truly is. The audience KNOWS that this attitude is nothing less than completely thought out. And a “paly within a play”. Sometimes other Gamzattis are so „saccharine sweet" that the real character does not come through. I had never mentioned this to you before but „Chapeau". This is what I call being in full command of the slightest nuances of a character... „

She smiles broadly. And I think with my „buttons" (Note: A very Portuguese expression, meaning “all alone”. Just I. Myself and me): She is happy that somebody „sees" that.

„I don't know if you ever saw a film with Vanessa Redgrave called „Second Surge". The theme of it has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with „La Bayadère" but the substance in which she acts is the same. It is a “notch above” of just portraying a character. It is the true story of a man who goes through gender affirmation surgery. The point is: when he was turned into a woman, you could still „see" the man (which is of course surprising, as Vanessa is a woman). It takes lots of „cerebral" acting and technique to be able to do that. And you achieve the same effect with your Gamzatti. Artistry!"

Intermission: I think of how amazing it is the way that a conversation can take, when both feel at ease, without anything to prove. This exchange, these moments are such fun. Priceless.

„In which of the roles do you feel more „at home"?", I continue.

„This is a very difficult question, Ricardo. I believe that I feel more comfortable with Nikiya. She is more sensitive. On the other hand, many people say that Gamzatti seems to have been written for me. Gamzatti is the technically more demanding part and that is also why people think of me as Gamzatti. To be honest, I like both but Gamzatti, and I mean no offense is a very ungrateful, thankless role. She has her 15 minutes „of glory", which is extremely difficult choreographically. She has to give „everything" during this quarter of an hour but does not have the same „glory" as Nikiya has. It is not easy to say everything that you have to say in such limited time spaces. Much less to develop a character. Nikiya has all her pieces in a constantly regular timing throughout the whole evening!"

„I see Nikiya as a constant line. Gamzatti, on the contrary, has the ups and downs of a very inconstant electrocardiogram" (and this is not a joke, I mean it!) „One question, Prisca, and this is the point that I have mentioned at the beginning of our interview, the point I did not want to speak of because I did not want to influence you. Here it goes: Do you understand Gamzatti now better since you have danced Nikiya? Has the fact that you danced both, brought them closer to you?"

This time her broad smile opens from ear to ear „Definitely. Definitely! This Season I danced Nikiya before I danced Gamzatti. I must say that I had another kind of feeling, another kind of comprehension towards Gamzatti. An invaluable experience. Of course, one always wants to dance the main role. Nikiya is the temple dancer, she is „La Bayadère" and hers is the main role. Gamzatti is also one of the main roles but not THE main role. Now as a result of having danced both in such a short time, both are for me on equal terms."

„The reason why I kept this question „for myself" for such a long time, is that as a teenager and during a David Wall Summer course for boys, I had the chance to watch many Ballets at the ROH. Many times I witnessed the exchange of roles (Des Grieux & Lescaut) between Wall and Sir Anthony Dowell, the same way in which Sir Laurence Olivier & Sir John Gielgud alternated on the „legitimate stage" with Romeo & Mercutio. I do believe that the English believed that by doing this in a better comprehension of the dialogues and characters which leads to a better understanding of the play, ballet, whatever while alternating roles. The theory was also that „alternating" makes you develop a certain empathy for the other."

„I absolutely agree with you! I have to think back and of the way I felt as Gamzatti during the sad, lyrical, melancholic Nikiya's „Monologue" (Note: While Gamzatti sits beside Solor, some a few minutes from the snake bite). Also if I don't have much to do, but just alone the posture made me think of another kind of understanding. I enjoyed this experience. Immensely. It also gave me the chance to find so many other subtleties in Gamazatti's character!"

„Subtleties, I like that!"

„Even at the pas de trois on the third act. (Note: Originally the fourth act) I could invest so much more emotion in it. Surely because of the relatively new acquired better comprehension of Nikiya and Solor. There was so much more emotion in me this time. Naturally, life experiences make you change from year to year and „grow" as a human being. Nevertheless, the experience of dancing both roles gave me not only much more knowledge about the characters but also much joy!"

“Dear Prisca, thank you very much for this lovely and exciting talk. I think it is so necessary to reproduce on paper and preserve such „talks", or interviews or moments; we can call them anything. Nowadays all that younger generations care about is „how many" fouettés, how high legs were, manèges, and Tours en l'air, and do not stop to realize that these (100% physical parts of technique) are only „tools" to Artistry. We have talked and talked today – and not for only a second we talked about technical difficulties and approaches. But we talked about dance in a nearly philosophical and very emotional way. And that is what I believe in!"

„I still would like to say that if I think back to Gamzatti and her first solo in Patrice Bart's version (which we dance here in Munich), I can only say that it is difficult. Very difficult. But thinking of Gamzatti and acknowledging her feelings and thoughts as „Look at me", „I'm here", and „I am beautiful" made things much easier for me – I do not think of the steps and the „technical " side of the execution. The focus was another"

„Yes, acting... you are telling a story and NOT doing gymnastics during the Olympic games. On top of it all, now you have presented us your theory about „Nikiya vs. Gamzatti" and my readers and I thank you for that. Very gratefully indeed."

„Ricardo, I also enjoyed this intellectual „interchange"! Thank you!"

Ricardo Leitner

July, 07th .2023