You can find the first part of this interview just by scrolling down on the Blog to March 21st, 2022.

About Quality, Technique, Emotions, Insights, Sensibility…

Before you start reading the second part of this article you should know that this interview took place long before Miss Harvey’s decision to leave the ABT Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis School - a fact that causes much more interest to it!

„Cynthia, you just gave me the perfect „bridge" for my next question: all your queries, thoughts, wishes show us that you are still connected „in your soul" with these roles – emotionally, philosophically. Nowadays I see a much younger generation on „Iphones" counting pirouettes, double Fouéttes, just paying attention to „circus-like" performances... I would rather sit down and watch „A God of dance", like Erik Bruhn again – but the „Kids" would not enjoy his performances now as we do. They'd prefer not only the kind of performances I have mentioned before but also this kind indefatigable „self-promotion " that is so obvious... why do you think this happening?"

„I have a real big problem with „self-promotion". I don't like it. Even on Instagram, I find it hard to post something about me – only when the School is doing something – and I hesitate to post anything about me. So with that in mind, I can only say that Social media calls for it. And this is the way of the world. Now. I don't like it. I don't necessarily agree with it. I have the feeling it is like the language issue: Grammar? It's being thrown out the window... Certain things are progressing – or changing – I don't know if you want to call it Progress but they are – let me find the right word - „moving", in another direction!"

„I love that – it is much better to use this word instead of „progress" or retrogression..." I must add, perhaps a bit cynically.

Giselle: curtain-call in Tokyo with Baryshnikov. Photographer unknown.

„Well, I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing. The difficulty is, Ricardo is that you and I have seen what we consider to be ART and Artistry. Ballet in our minds is not something quantifiable, is not something you can count. It is the intangible aspect of the art form. Like when I go to a museum. Why do I like this over this? But also, I think that the public, the people that are now attending performances don't have the kind of information that we were so lucky to have... There's something about the purity of the art form, the stripping away of the artifice and putting it into the art so that is really about the purity of the art of ballet... But I think that because Social media can make everything so exciting, countable and make people get instant gratification. if you want to get their attention, you have to give them something „catchy", to “get” them... And that's why there are so many videos with more „percussion" than „harps"!"

Another “image” I can “see”. I love that, I must say. I love the way Cynthia can always give you images you can relate to, to understand the depth of what she is explaining. Beautiful.

„But of course we could make it better. Just think of Filmmakers: they don't sensationalize things so much... The young people who do ballet: if they wouldn't refer to things they have seen on their iPhones, they could refer to something more... let's say, more elegant! I would like that!"

„Yes!"

Ondine with Jonathan Cope. Copyright: Billy Cooper

„I do have an issue and I told that to my Students: When they have learned a certain solo, they come to me and tell me about it. I ask them „Where did you learn this from?" and they answer „We saw someone from some of the competitions!". I ask them why are they learning from somebody from "a competition" when they could be learning by watching Misha Baryshnikov, Rudolph Nureyev or Fernando Bujones, Peter Schaufuss... these were dancers who MADE those parts special. Vladimir Vasiliev, Julio Bocca, fabulous dancers... and Anthony Dowell, beautiful, elegant dancers... „You want to look at them", I say!"

„The „balance" between Technique and Artistry is not quite right... Technique, for me, is a „tool" to achieve Artistry. Not Artistry itself„ I say.

“Holding her hand” in Giselle with Robert La Fosse. Copyright: Mira

„I don't even think that turning and high legs are technique. They are an ability. Some people can turn. Some people can get their legs up. It's an ability some people are born with, and sure some people can improve their flexibility and make that happen more easily. But, most of all, Art must not be made quantifiable. Technique is not about how much or how many. For me, technique is in the details. It is a beautiful fifth position. It is the fingers and how you hold your hand and head according to the style you're dancing. It is the line of your arabesque, the gliding in your glissade. It's the HOW one does something, not the HOW MANY one does something"

Do you remember Karen Blixen's words when she talks about Dennis, who had given her the „privilege of seeing the world „through God's eyes" when he took her on a flight for the first time in Africa? And that „overwhelming surprise when she says „And I thought. Yes. I see it". Well, the same happened to me at that very instant. Cynthia Harvey, without knowing it, opened a completely new horizon for me. And made me get rid of quite a few linguistic prejudices. Yes, I thought, I see it.

„I think it is up to us, teachers, schools, parents to help sort out the dancers, the students a bit more. And in class what I try to say to them is that I am not looking for a lot of turns, I am looking for when you're doing a pirouette that you finish it in the framework of the music. You have to be a reflection of the music. And that's another area which is being forgotten. „Forget the music", I hear, or „I'll ask the conductor to slow down the tempo so I can do that extra turn”, so to do that the speed of a piece is lost and consequently the excitement goes away. That is not what the composer wanted. I know conductors who do not like it, who do not like what they are being asked to do!"

With Wes Chapman, Tokyo. (Miss Harvey’s private collection)

„Two years ago", I tell „two dancers from the Opera – no names mentioned – were here at my flat for Dinner „and Videos and Ballet" because they longed to see „good material". Among other things we watched parts of „Swan Lake" with Makarova and Anthony Dowell, that historic performance at the Royal Opera House, in which the English Audience didn't quite know what to do, begin with or think of Makarova's interpretation of Odette/Odile, which had been quite changed when compared to her „Russian days"! One of the girls started sniggering at Makarova during the fouettés because she starts at the back of the stage and finishes them very near the Orchestra pit... well, to tell a long story short: I stopped the video, went back to the beginning of the Coda and said "Now, just forget what you call „Technique" and watch this with other eyes, differently – look at her power and at the very end, when she does this marvellous Cambré – because she is „saying": „I have you under my power, you are MINE and I have the power to decide that!", OK?". They watched it again and had to say that now they understood what I had meant... Then I went on to describe dramaturgically what these fouettés mean to the tale, what they cause the Prince to feel like! The magical meanness that she uses in the role"

Cynthia pauses for a while as if (re)watching (many) films on her mind „It's funny to me, I just spoke of this with four or five Ballerinas from the ABT last year in May while I was moderating a talk about „Swan Lake". I said that if I could change one thing, I'd probably not want to do the 32 fouettés, especially now, because they were always difficult for me – I did them but sometimes not so well..."

Aurora (Sleeping Beauty). Copyright: Leslie Spatt / The Royal Ballet

And I cannot help thinking again: I LOVE that. This beautiful Prima Ballerina is so humble about her performances, talent. This shows so much of the kind of real Person she is! But just „real persons" can be this „transmitting", when talking about taking it from the Stage and passing it through the fourth wall to the audience

„...but I did 32, not 16 doubles because the idea of the fouettés is to build this frenzy that is surprising to him, making him unable to even think because of this whirlwind"

„to dazzle him, no?" I ask.

„Exactly, Ricardo, and I think that even Maya Plissestkaya did piquet turns instead of them – I would have loved to have that option" she laughs wholeheartedly „because it is not about the fouettés. However, you are made to feel a failure if you can't do them. And, unfortunately, most people think like this. But it is just one step in the whole Ballet. But if you can get the feeling that Makarova has on the „rest" of the Ballet – who cares? Of course, it's great if you can do it" she laughs again „but the emphasis of „Odile" should not be restricted to that"

Then I went on to speak of a certain, not so young Ballerina from the Royal, that makes these Fouettés greatly – yes, greatly – but about whom I always think of Dorothy Parker commenting on a (very early) Katharine Hepburn's stage performance: „She plays the gamut of emotions from A to B"

She laughs out loud and said, „I remember that quote – I didn't know who had said it, but I remember it well!"

„I won't be invited by any press department in any Opera House to see a dancer doing „Fouettés". I get them to see the dancer, in Swan Lake's case, playing this double role, this challenge in what characterization and interpretation are concerned!", I have to say.

„ A „frank word", Cynthia, what would you recommend to younger dancers in this issue of interpretation and Artistry? Or let's put it in plain words: Artistry vs. Bravura?"

"Again, it will be a matter of taste BUT they should remember that IT IS ART. You're there, on stage, to entertain and move the public. You're not there to show off. Showing off is what you can do if you want to become an Instagram sensation. Or a Facebook sensation. Then you can show off to your heart's content but if you want to be an artist, you have to keep the Art in the Art form"

„Being the Artistic Director of the ABT School of Dance (Note: American Ballet Theatre Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis School of Dance) you carry such a responsibility because it is „just" a whole generation of Dancers or some generations... „

„I am fortunate that Kevin McKenzie asked me to take the job because he knew that I understood what he was looking for, to a great extent. I had a few dancers who I recommended to him. Different, special dancers – and to „my liking" - so I think that he appreciated that. How a new director should want to see his company, I think it should be their choice, how they see it. What they want from their dancers... this is a prerogative of the director. So, basically, whatever vision I had for the school, it has been an open door but it is Kevin's final decision."

„How long have you been director of the School now?"

„It's my sixth year!"

„And before that, you were in England?"

„Yes, I was living in the U.K. for 23 years!"

We talked for a while about very private things like family, her son, losing relatives, how people react on Social Media to such issues, Makarova and how a young generation does not even know who she is – and my last Interview with Robert La Fosse and the way he described the fact that years ago “we only saw her (Makarova) on stage or perhaps if we were lucky enough on a television interview. That was it. She was not „everyday cooking breakfast from her Kitchen" and posting pictures on Instagram or Facebook”

„The mystery, the allure is no longer considered interesting. Dancers nowadays don't want to be mysterious and alluring. They want to be accessible, totally open to the public, you know „the look at my bruises, look at my scars- type of thing"... Maybe it is just a generational thing but I don't know the answer to that... Robbie (Note: Robert La Fosse) and I went once to watch Nureyev dance with Margot! And we went backstage when she could barely put her point shoes on, to visit them. We stood there just watching. In total amazement. It was „Marguerite and Armand". I didn't want to know then the struggles that Fonteyn was having. I just wanted to see the beauty of what she was doing. I don't necessarily need to know these things. Even about TV Stars about whom we seem to know so much because of the magazines – but I don't buy them when checking out of the grocery store. I am not interested in that. I'd rather read a book if I have time. And I am dying to have more time to read a book! But that must be it. Everybody seems to be now in such a hurry that they need to have instant information, which is why Instagram is so popular... „

„But this is so sad... There is no fun and no “sit down, put your feet up, take your time and relax”. Everything is done in such a hurry. Everything seems to be filled with anxiety. This is so sad...„ and I mean it.

„Yes, it is very sad. They are missing out on a whole rich and fulfilling moment. But, maybe I am wrong, this seems perhaps to be their enrichment and fulfilment. It's just „different strokes for different folks"

And that once more, showed me the essence of this beautiful character, of this Artist I have admired for so many years: Respect. Thinking of her as a solo violin, I can only imagine her in connection with Respect for her Art, for her instrument, for all other „players" who contribute to the „whole" and being very critical – I like that! Not forgetting that is absolute „Conditio Sine Qua Non", for herself as an artist, woman and Human Being.

This was an experience, and what an experience this was. At last I, at this „certain age", began REALLY to be able to pick up people's brains. And this is so important. To keep this on „paper", not only to me but for the future of “our” Ballet World. I'm very grateful for that!

Thank you, Cynthia!